About a couple of years ago I had an argument with a motor diagnostic specialist about the use of hi octane fuels. I have always used 91 octane in all our hybrids. His opinion was that we will get 5% improvement in fuel economy if we changed to 95 or 98. I have always resisted this change as the Prius is not a particularly high compression engine and therefore I see no added advantage. In any case the extra cost would cancel out any improve performance.
Chris Read has this to add which to me settles the matter.
Nearly all modern cars (certainly Japanese cars) learn various characteristics, a key one of which is octane rating, any car that has learnt a particular grade will probably react very badly when a fuel at the other end of the scale is used.
If I had a pound for every time somebody had told me they only buy a particular brand or grade of fuel 'because the car suddenly performs badly if another type of fuel is used' then I would be a rich man. They have all been right in the short term and wrong in the long term. Every scientific test I have ever seen (last one was performed by the Consumer Association in the UK for the Which? magazine, you can't get any more independent than that) concludes that standard unleaded (91 RON in the UK) gives the best value for money and there is no discernible difference between fuel brands (Shell, BP, etc.).
I choose a RON rating that is within the suitable range for the vehicle and stick to it, avoid premium or performance fuels as the extra costs in producing and marketing such fuel make it uneconomic to use (once the car has learnt to use 'basic' fuel). If you want to change fuels then disconnect the 12v battery for a few minutes just before changing fuels to force the car to re-learn quickly, this will stop the warning lights.
(If you can, watch the long and short term fuel trim on a scanner (most will do OBD2 or E-OBD), for a few minutes after the 12v is re-connected and the car started. The long and short fuel trims learn at the same pace for a while, then the long term gets heavily weighted by previous data and changes very very slowly. It's this slow change that makes the car run so badly for a while after fuel is changed and sometimes puts an error light on. Without a 12v disconnect, after a few days of learning the long term fuel trim adjusts enough to put the error light off and the cars running improves as it matches the fuelling better, happens much quicker with a 12v disconnect.)
Regards,
Chris.
Showing posts with label Generation 1 Prius. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Generation 1 Prius. Show all posts
Thursday, January 3, 2013
Sunday, August 12, 2012
Comments about NHW10 the Generation One Prius
This comment is a reprint from the MK1 Prius Forum. It highlights the problems with purchasing a NHW10 Generation 1 Prius hybrid.
It seems that there are a few people out there, who cannot get a clear vision of the Early Prius.
Well, I bought Prius #1 4 weeks ago, and it was bought as not working etc, etc, with battery doubts etc.
The car looked neglected by under-educated garages over time when we got it, but I figured with my background, it would at least be worth the price in parts if it failed, and could not be ressurected.
We drove it home, and drove as advised by the vendor. Well, it was flawless right from the start.
It was an excellent buy, we cannot be happier.
Since then, it has done the daily work run for the wife, some 57Km's daily, and four runs across the city, and free-way driving. It spluttered for the first 2 Km's on the first Free-way run, and was obviously over fuelling, or not running hot enough by the "Rotten egg" odour from the rear. it seemed to clear itself out, and never missed a beat. Some 4 weeks plus, it has covered all types of driving, including the last 24hrs, some 758Km's, and amazingly, the fuel tank does not need a top-up. INCREDIBLE!
I have to admit I was a little weary of buying one, but now two of them, but figured the parts alone were worth more than we paid for each one, so what the hell we said. We had always been curious, but the price tag of the recent ones was high, especially if we were left with a "Lemon"
My recommendation... Buy a cheap one, and try it first. If you like the economy and quality, then trade the one in, and go for the newer item.
The wife is not letting go of hers, no matter what, she is seriously in love with it for all reasons.
Recommend not going to the average garage to get it serviced, or it may finish up like Prius #2.
#2 is now at home, running, and gently charging its battery pack. Have to admit, it can be worrying when they don't function normally, but given the 1998 Prius's shining example, I have faith I can resurrect it over time...
Rule #1... a REAL garage who knows what battery and spark plugs to use, and can, in fact change the air filter, rather than say they have.
Not the car, its the people who service them.
My conclusion after first month... I AM going to trade one in for a recent model for certain, the 1998... well, I have to get the key from the wifes hand before I even dare.... after all, after 2000Km's in four weeks, What a car, no way gonna buy a "Normal" gas guzzler after I have tasted such luxury and technology from last century.
It seems that there are a few people out there, who cannot get a clear vision of the Early Prius.
Well, I bought Prius #1 4 weeks ago, and it was bought as not working etc, etc, with battery doubts etc.
The car looked neglected by under-educated garages over time when we got it, but I figured with my background, it would at least be worth the price in parts if it failed, and could not be ressurected.
We drove it home, and drove as advised by the vendor. Well, it was flawless right from the start.
It was an excellent buy, we cannot be happier.
Since then, it has done the daily work run for the wife, some 57Km's daily, and four runs across the city, and free-way driving. It spluttered for the first 2 Km's on the first Free-way run, and was obviously over fuelling, or not running hot enough by the "Rotten egg" odour from the rear. it seemed to clear itself out, and never missed a beat. Some 4 weeks plus, it has covered all types of driving, including the last 24hrs, some 758Km's, and amazingly, the fuel tank does not need a top-up. INCREDIBLE!
I have to admit I was a little weary of buying one, but now two of them, but figured the parts alone were worth more than we paid for each one, so what the hell we said. We had always been curious, but the price tag of the recent ones was high, especially if we were left with a "Lemon"
My recommendation... Buy a cheap one, and try it first. If you like the economy and quality, then trade the one in, and go for the newer item.
The wife is not letting go of hers, no matter what, she is seriously in love with it for all reasons.
Recommend not going to the average garage to get it serviced, or it may finish up like Prius #2.
#2 is now at home, running, and gently charging its battery pack. Have to admit, it can be worrying when they don't function normally, but given the 1998 Prius's shining example, I have faith I can resurrect it over time...
Rule #1... a REAL garage who knows what battery and spark plugs to use, and can, in fact change the air filter, rather than say they have.
Not the car, its the people who service them.
My conclusion after first month... I AM going to trade one in for a recent model for certain, the 1998... well, I have to get the key from the wifes hand before I even dare.... after all, after 2000Km's in four weeks, What a car, no way gonna buy a "Normal" gas guzzler after I have tasted such luxury and technology from last century.
Saturday, February 28, 2009
How Good Is The Toyota Hybrid Generation One 1997 - 2000
The number of series 1 having problems with the hybrid battery is increasing because it was designed to last between 8 to 10 years. The car itself is still going strong and it seem a shame to scrap the vehicle. New Zealand can no longer import this as a second hand vehicle from Japan. It is still possible to import this vehicle into Australia.
The generation 1 Prius has the black bumper strip on the front and back bumper. We have always contended that this is one very hardy car. As long as the HEV battery can be kept and maintained in good working condition nothing else major really goes wrong with it. A great car for someone who wants a workhorse and does alot of travelling.You could conceivably recoup your investment just from fuel and maintenance savings in the first year!
How good is this vehicle ? Well we were offered a 1999 white Prius hybrid this week. The owner had it at toyota for several months and the diagnosis was that the drive shaft and gearbox was broken. The owner rang us and said that the battery was still in good condition and we were offered the vehicle for $1500 transported to our workshop. We accepted the offer planning to retrive some parts from the vehicle.
The vehicle arrive next day overnight from Wellington. It managed to start but there was a cranking noise coming from the engine. We have come across this before and it does not mean that the gear box is shot! It could happen if the coolant to the gearbox is dry. This was not the case. There was oil in the crankcase so that was not it. The engine and 288V error came up. We then changed the spark plugs and air flow meter but the noise was still there. We then changed the HEV battery just in case although the triangle error was not there. It was driveable but was rough. Feels like there a gear was slipping.
We took it down for a scan but no errors were detected except that the timing was a little forward at 13% up to 16.5%. This brought us to suspect that one cylinder was missing. We checked the new spark plugs and sure enough cylinder 2 was clean! OK we got hold of a coil from another vehicle substitute for it and magic of magic the engine ran smooth. Took it for a test drive and the vehicle performed faultlessly. Has done 150,000 Kms but should do another 150,000 easily.
We did not suspect a coil fault in the first place because when the car was driven the electric drive assisted which mask the problem. We did notice that the HEV battery drained very quickly and was difficult to charge up.
This is why it is so important to keep the petrol engine running perfectly. This is not difficult to do at all. Change the air flow meter if there is lack in performance and change the spark plugs every 10,000 Kms. Any loss in power is compensated by the electric engine which cause the HEV battery to fail as it does not get a chance to charge up fully in normal driving.
There was nothing wrong with the HEV battery but it goes to show that not many mechanics including Toyota are able to correctly diagnose this vehicle. our experience is that they don't even know how to service this vehicle correctly.
So don't give up on this vehicle. I wonder how many of these cars have been scrapped unnecessarily. They are so hardy and not much mechanically goes wrong with it.
Nimh cells and reconditioning
The voltages between cells must be within 20% or the ECU will throw up an error message. If the hybrid ECU calls for more power than the battery pack can input/output, a trash battery. If the cell imbalances are more than the ECU can cope with it goes into standby mode and puts up the triangle error code.
This also means you can't mix new cells with old as it will exceed the 20% tolerance. Good used tubes getting increasingly difficult to find to build balanced packs. We have to rebuild good tubes by breaking them up and spot welding the good cells into a new tube and then reconditioning this reconstituted tube to maximum capacity.
The point of this blog is to let all Generation 1 Prius owners know that the battery clinic can now rebuilt the nimh tube from other cells.
With this process we can now make good tubes and ones of better quality than just pure cannibalised tubes. The number of good cannibalised tubes is not high because they have to pass our 100 amps stress test. Rebuilt tubes pass this test easily.
The result of this is that we can keep your Generation 1 Toyota Prius running for many more years into the future.
How good is this vehicle ? Well we were offered a 1999 white Prius hybrid this week. The owner had it at toyota for several months and the diagnosis was that the drive shaft and gearbox was broken. The owner rang us and said that the battery was still in good condition and we were offered the vehicle for $1500 transported to our workshop. We accepted the offer planning to retrive some parts from the vehicle.
The vehicle arrive next day overnight from Wellington. It managed to start but there was a cranking noise coming from the engine. We have come across this before and it does not mean that the gear box is shot! It could happen if the coolant to the gearbox is dry. This was not the case. There was oil in the crankcase so that was not it. The engine and 288V error came up. We then changed the spark plugs and air flow meter but the noise was still there. We then changed the HEV battery just in case although the triangle error was not there. It was driveable but was rough. Feels like there a gear was slipping.
We took it down for a scan but no errors were detected except that the timing was a little forward at 13% up to 16.5%. This brought us to suspect that one cylinder was missing. We checked the new spark plugs and sure enough cylinder 2 was clean! OK we got hold of a coil from another vehicle substitute for it and magic of magic the engine ran smooth. Took it for a test drive and the vehicle performed faultlessly. Has done 150,000 Kms but should do another 150,000 easily.
We did not suspect a coil fault in the first place because when the car was driven the electric drive assisted which mask the problem. We did notice that the HEV battery drained very quickly and was difficult to charge up.
This is why it is so important to keep the petrol engine running perfectly. This is not difficult to do at all. Change the air flow meter if there is lack in performance and change the spark plugs every 10,000 Kms. Any loss in power is compensated by the electric engine which cause the HEV battery to fail as it does not get a chance to charge up fully in normal driving.
There was nothing wrong with the HEV battery but it goes to show that not many mechanics including Toyota are able to correctly diagnose this vehicle. our experience is that they don't even know how to service this vehicle correctly.
So don't give up on this vehicle. I wonder how many of these cars have been scrapped unnecessarily. They are so hardy and not much mechanically goes wrong with it.
Nimh cells and reconditioning
The voltages between cells must be within 20% or the ECU will throw up an error message. If the hybrid ECU calls for more power than the battery pack can input/output, a trash battery. If the cell imbalances are more than the ECU can cope with it goes into standby mode and puts up the triangle error code.
This also means you can't mix new cells with old as it will exceed the 20% tolerance. Good used tubes getting increasingly difficult to find to build balanced packs. We have to rebuild good tubes by breaking them up and spot welding the good cells into a new tube and then reconditioning this reconstituted tube to maximum capacity.
The point of this blog is to let all Generation 1 Prius owners know that the battery clinic can now rebuilt the nimh tube from other cells.
With this process we can now make good tubes and ones of better quality than just pure cannibalised tubes. The number of good cannibalised tubes is not high because they have to pass our 100 amps stress test. Rebuilt tubes pass this test easily.
The result of this is that we can keep your Generation 1 Toyota Prius running for many more years into the future.
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