i purchased a reconditioned battery from The Battery Clinic last year to get my car back on the road, which it did and ran great after fitting it. I was told that the battery computer would have to be replaced to get rid of the triangle as the computer gets damaged from overcharging.
Patrick i see that you're now able to have the battery computer repaired, do you know if there is any way to check for sure that its damaged also im guessing that driving the car with the computer in this state could cause damage to some cells? If so im hoping i can replace the damaged cells myself and get rid of the triangle with a repaired computer,
Matt
I nearly gave up repairing the battery and as luck would have it I found a company with an S2000 scanner who were able to clear the error code encoded in the battery computer. The triangle error is cleared but the problems which caused the battery to fail are still there.
Firstly the HEV battery is already more than 10 years old and wear and tear has reduced the battery's capacity. Reconditioning only replaces dead cells and increases the capacity to a working battery again but it will never have the full 100% capacity of a new battery. The advantage is that the hybrid car does not need a 100% capacity to operate at full power. It only need the battery to hold it's voltage for the short burst that is required of it.
The Air Flow Meter has probably never been changed since new and it should be replaced every 100,000 Kms. If this equipment is not functioning correctly it will cause the battery to fail. This is more important as the capacity of the battery is not 100%.
The spark plugs should also be changed every 10,000 Kms. These are just standard spark plugs and are not expensive to replace but will improve the performance of the ICE motor.
You can try to change the cells yourself by taking out the most suspect cells looking at the voltage. I can supply good cells. This is still not fullproof as some cells show good voltage and collapse only under high load. It is all relative so unless you know how much charge a cell has to start with you can't be sure if a cell collapse because it is bad or has low capacity.
After you have had it fixed then you must ensure that other problems with the car are not contributing. Usually the air flow meter.
Your battery is still under warranty so you could send it back to be reworked.
Friday, October 30, 2009
Tuesday, September 15, 2009
Toyota Prius Gen 2 Hybrids
We are starting to get Prius Generation 2 in for battery reconditioning. Toyota dealers and repair centers will always recommend that you purchase a new HEV battery. This will cost about $5000. Today the vehicle is worth between $8000 to $12000, so the cost is a significant part of the vehicle's valuation.
We repair the series 2 hybrid battery for $600 plus cost of cells changed at $150. If we find that the whole pack is below capacity we will recommend that the whole HEV pack be reconditioned as well. This brings the cost to $1000 plus cost of cells changed.
The cost is still significantly less than changing the whole battery.
We repair the series 2 hybrid battery for $600 plus cost of cells changed at $150. If we find that the whole pack is below capacity we will recommend that the whole HEV pack be reconditioned as well. This brings the cost to $1000 plus cost of cells changed.
The cost is still significantly less than changing the whole battery.
Friday, July 10, 2009
More on Prius hybrid battery computer
Further experiences with the series 1 hybrid computer leads me to believe that in most cases the damage to the battery results from a computer fault. One or more diode in the computer fails resulting in incorrect of the battery computer. This is when you get the triangle error.
The problem with this situation is that unless the battery is fully functional it is impossible to diagnose a computer fault. The diagnostic scanner will return a battery fault even if it is the computer that is faulty. This is because the computer scans and senses the battery voltages and if 1 diode is faulty it gives the scanner a faulty battery error.
We sent faulty computer to a company for repair and upon installation all errors including the triangle error disappears. There was no need to reset error codes with the diagnostic scanner.
More update on this blogg soon as I investigate the problem further.
The problem with this situation is that unless the battery is fully functional it is impossible to diagnose a computer fault. The diagnostic scanner will return a battery fault even if it is the computer that is faulty. This is because the computer scans and senses the battery voltages and if 1 diode is faulty it gives the scanner a faulty battery error.
We sent faulty computer to a company for repair and upon installation all errors including the triangle error disappears. There was no need to reset error codes with the diagnostic scanner.
More update on this blogg soon as I investigate the problem further.
Tuesday, June 30, 2009
Repairing the battery computer
The good news is that the battery computer can be repaired. We reconditioned a hybrid battery for Auto Electrical Solutions Ltd in Palmerston North It had a faulty computer. The tortoise would come on when the battery indicator showed half or 3/4 charge. This is a sure indicator that one of the diode sensors is faulty.
Because the battery is now fixed, it is now possible to check the diodes in the computer and change the faulty ones. This is what AES did and all error codes also went away.
This is good news as it completes the process of repairing and reconditioning the series 1 hybrid battery.
Because the battery is now fixed, it is now possible to check the diodes in the computer and change the faulty ones. This is what AES did and all error codes also went away.
This is good news as it completes the process of repairing and reconditioning the series 1 hybrid battery.
Wednesday, June 10, 2009
How to tell if your prius battery computer is faulty
The prius series 1 battery computer has 40 diodes and capacitors in an array. If one of these diode or capicators fail the computer is faulty.
If you see the tortoise icon when the battery charge level is in the green, your battery computer is faulty. You will have to get another computer. Driving with this computer will overcharge the battery and destroy it completely. I mean completely that is most of the cells will be destroyed until you can't drive it at all.
You can't even replace the battery with a new one!!! The computer have to be replaced.
It may be possible to carefully drive the vehicle but you must not let the overcharge 100% charge indicator show for too long and you must back off when you see the yellow charge indicator. It is difficult to drive within these parameters.
If you see the tortoise icon when the battery charge level is in the green, your battery computer is faulty. You will have to get another computer. Driving with this computer will overcharge the battery and destroy it completely. I mean completely that is most of the cells will be destroyed until you can't drive it at all.
You can't even replace the battery with a new one!!! The computer have to be replaced.
It may be possible to carefully drive the vehicle but you must not let the overcharge 100% charge indicator show for too long and you must back off when you see the yellow charge indicator. It is difficult to drive within these parameters.
Tuesday, June 2, 2009
How to recondition your prius hybrid battery - Series 1
This post is to help those who wants to recondition their Series 1 Prius battery themselves. Do note that the series 1 Prius ( 1997 - 2000 ) refers to the model that uses the Nimh D cells. These were never imported into the United States. Those in the US will refer to the Series 2 ( 2000 - 2003 ) using the parametric Nimh cell module as the Series 1. ( Confused ? )
The first step is to remove the battery pack from the vehicle. You can refer to our website for more detail information. HERE
When we first started reconditioning this battery in 2007 we did what most people would do that is to check the condition of each tube with a volt meter and replace the weakest tubes with better ones. This process though logical is extremely frustrating. The problem is that each tube consist of 6 D cells in series and measuring the voltage of the whole tube does not accurately reflect on the condition of the tube. To more accurately check this remove the plastic wrapper and test the voltage of each D cell separately.
Whenever you try to determine the status of a cell by it's voltage you have to know the state of charge before you start your measurement. Using a suitable Nimh charger give the tube a full charge before you start your measurement.
To accurately determine the capacity of each tube discharge the tube with a know resistor and measure the amps used. If you get 5 amps and above the tube will be suitable for use in the pack.
When you get all 40 tubes, assemble the battery pack and with luck you have reconditioned your own battery pack successfully and your car will be roaring back to life again.
Caution : The Series 1 Prius battery pack consist of 240 Nimh D cells in series. Up to 360 volts could be exposed. Wear protective gloves when working with this battery at all times.
The first step is to remove the battery pack from the vehicle. You can refer to our website for more detail information. HERE
When we first started reconditioning this battery in 2007 we did what most people would do that is to check the condition of each tube with a volt meter and replace the weakest tubes with better ones. This process though logical is extremely frustrating. The problem is that each tube consist of 6 D cells in series and measuring the voltage of the whole tube does not accurately reflect on the condition of the tube. To more accurately check this remove the plastic wrapper and test the voltage of each D cell separately.
Whenever you try to determine the status of a cell by it's voltage you have to know the state of charge before you start your measurement. Using a suitable Nimh charger give the tube a full charge before you start your measurement.
To accurately determine the capacity of each tube discharge the tube with a know resistor and measure the amps used. If you get 5 amps and above the tube will be suitable for use in the pack.
When you get all 40 tubes, assemble the battery pack and with luck you have reconditioned your own battery pack successfully and your car will be roaring back to life again.
Saturday, May 9, 2009
Charging Nimh Battery with the inverter
The series 1 Prius hybrid has an inbuilt inverter that can be used to charge the main nimh battery with a 12 volt battery. This feature was dropped in lter models.
How to charge the nimh battery with the inverter.
1) Connect a 75 ah or larger battery in place of the 12 volt battery. The standard 12 volt battery does noy have enough capacity.
2) Start the vehicle. The nimh 288 volt fault indicator will display.
3) Remove the ignition key
4) Press start on the inverter in the car boot.
5) Charging will start
6) Allow charging to complete
7) Start the vehicle.
8) Let it run to charge the battery completely
9) Reconnect the 12 volt battery
How to charge the nimh battery with the inverter.
1) Connect a 75 ah or larger battery in place of the 12 volt battery. The standard 12 volt battery does noy have enough capacity.
2) Start the vehicle. The nimh 288 volt fault indicator will display.
3) Remove the ignition key
4) Press start on the inverter in the car boot.
5) Charging will start
6) Allow charging to complete
7) Start the vehicle.
8) Let it run to charge the battery completely
9) Reconnect the 12 volt battery
Friday, May 1, 2009
Battery Computer Failure in Series 1 Prius
First indication was when we get a vehicle where the charge monitor went from yellow to half to 3/3 then to full very quickly. It then discharge quickly to yellow with the tortoise low power indicator showing. This quick flickering in charge level is not usual. We always suspected the Nimh battery.
Our recondition process now results in a good working battery - we therefore suspected the computer. Replacing the faulty computer with another fixed the problem. Out of more than 50 batteries reconditioned to date we have encountered about 5.
We think that this could be the result of diode degradation over time. If this is so then all battery computer will have a limited life!! Perhaps someone can shed more light on this.
Our recondition process now results in a good working battery - we therefore suspected the computer. Replacing the faulty computer with another fixed the problem. Out of more than 50 batteries reconditioned to date we have encountered about 5.
We think that this could be the result of diode degradation over time. If this is so then all battery computer will have a limited life!! Perhaps someone can shed more light on this.
Saturday, April 11, 2009
Toyota Scan Tool
This message from Kevin in the Yahoo Mk1 Prius Forum
I own a Prius Mk1 and have done a considerable amount of
research on the scanning of this car. Despite the fact that it has a
> > > standard 16 pin OBD connector, it is one of the first few cars to use
> > > the 16 pin connector BEFORE it was adopted as any sort of standard.
> > > The standard of "OBD-11" only applied as compulsory in the USA from
> > > 1995 anyway, and car manufacturers only had to comply with OBD-11 if
> > > they wished to sell there cars in the USA from 1995. Toyota did not
> > > wish to sell their Prius Mk1 outside of Japan and the 1995 OBD-11
> > > protocols around at the time did not suit their needs, as they were
> > > inadequate for this car. I can reveal that the car is using "Toyota M-
> > > OBD", Toyota multiplex onboard diagnostics acording to people who
> > > specalise in toyota OBD.
> > >
> > > In the 16 pin connector (correctly known as the J1962 socket) the
> > > pins are as follows :-
> > > pin 16 = battery
> > > pin 4 = ground
> > > pin 13= test pin
> > > pins 6,7,9,14 are communication pins
> > >
> > > the Prius Mk1 uses a ECU for each of ,the engine, the ABS, the
> > > airbag, the Hybrid running gear and finally the Hybrid battery.
> > >
> > > Toyota themselves use a "Techmaster scantool" with an "S2000"
> > > cartridge adaptor, with software that they wrote themselves just for
> > > this car, only available to Toyota maindealers in Japan. The software
> > > itself uses "keyword protocols", (that's code words to you and me),
> > > using ALDL speeds of communication ( Assembly Line Diagnostic Link),
> > > now known communally as OBD-1 speeds of communication, first used
> > > commonally by General motors in the mid 1980's.
> > >
> > > The problem with getting a scan tool to handle the prius Mk1 is, that
> > > the scan tool needs to handle "Toyota M-OBD" keyword protacols, It
> > > also deeds to have a "J1962 connector" with the correct pin
> > > configuration. .
> > >
> > > All OBD-1 and OBD-11 dedicatated scantools will not work on this
> > > car !!!!!!
> > > I know, I have tried several of them that are on the market. Some of
> > > them costing several thousand of pounds.
> > > There are some of the more expensive ones that do the Prius MK11(
> > > which is OBD-11 compliant using more common keyword protocols) and
> > > Prius Mk111&1V using OBD-11 "CAN" (continuose area network protocols).
> > >
> > > So "what's to do then"?
> > >
> > > The only "After market" scan tools that are known to read the OBD's
> > > of the Prius Mk1 cars are the "Carman" scan tools range made by
> > > Nextech. The Carman A200( now discontinued) , the carman scan lite and
> > > the Carman VG. The scantools also have to have the september 2007
> > > software update to get the best results as well. The carman scan lite
> > > is £1500 ($3000) retail.
> > >
> > > I own a Carman scan lite, and the scan tool Is "brilliant", as it
> > > leaves no stone unturned, you can get all the information from the
> > > car that you need on any aspect.
> > >
> > > All 20 of Prs of modules in the Hybrid battery are shown including
> > > voltages, Ohms, temp of each Pr. Also the overall max and min
> > > voltages and temperatures of the monitoring system and exact % of
> > > overall charge as well as information on every sensor on the whole
> > > car.
> > > it will give you all the trouble codes on each of the ECU's and
> > > enable you to reset them as well.
> > >
> > > The only down side to the Carman scan tools are that they do not "
> > > flash" the ECU's, that is to say that, as of yet, the software dose
> > > not turn the " balance charge request" from "OFF" to "ON" and back
> > > again, even though you can see it on the scan.
> > >
> > > One of the problems with these cars is that the cells in the Hybrid
> > > battery are an early type of "high capacity" NM-Hi, and over time
> > > they may suffer from the " battery memory affect", problem similar
> > > to NI-CAD cells, and they discharge more rapidly if left unused for
> > > any length of time as well. Toyota thought to overcome this problem
> > > by using their scantool to do the "balance charge request"
> > > manouver ,by using the cars own charging system,( a full
> > > overall/across the board 110% charge) to rejuvenate the whole Battery
> > > in one go, if this failed they would fit a free RE-CON battery
> > > instead, all though this was rare. So sadly, we "outside of Japan"
> > > owners can only strip the Hybrid Battery down ( be careful they are
> > > 315 DC volts when fully charged, from first to last terminal,
> > > according to my carman scantool info, electricians tools and gloves
> > > required). You then have to rejuvenate each module, one at a time,
> > > replacing any failed ones, and finally rebuild the battery again
> > > using as evenly as balanced pairs as you can. The Carman scan lite
> > > can help you monitor this Process but " If only" it cannot do the
> > > balance charge manouver as of yet as I have said. Some cars go on and
> > > on, without problems ( 100,000 miles +) with the battery, some have
> > > stripped the battery down and replaced a " too good" a module, to
> > > achieve a balance. So until hopefully, Carman sortout a "balance
> > > charge manouver" setting on thier scan tool, in one of their future
> > > software updates, we will still have to do this by hand. Other wise
> > > the carman scan tools covers everything else and is unique.
> > >
I own a Prius Mk1 and have done a considerable amount of
research on the scanning of this car. Despite the fact that it has a
> > > standard 16 pin OBD connector, it is one of the first few cars to use
> > > the 16 pin connector BEFORE it was adopted as any sort of standard.
> > > The standard of "OBD-11" only applied as compulsory in the USA from
> > > 1995 anyway, and car manufacturers only had to comply with OBD-11 if
> > > they wished to sell there cars in the USA from 1995. Toyota did not
> > > wish to sell their Prius Mk1 outside of Japan and the 1995 OBD-11
> > > protocols around at the time did not suit their needs, as they were
> > > inadequate for this car. I can reveal that the car is using "Toyota M-
> > > OBD", Toyota multiplex onboard diagnostics acording to people who
> > > specalise in toyota OBD.
> > >
> > > In the 16 pin connector (correctly known as the J1962 socket) the
> > > pins are as follows :-
> > > pin 16 = battery
> > > pin 4 = ground
> > > pin 13= test pin
> > > pins 6,7,9,14 are communication pins
> > >
> > > the Prius Mk1 uses a ECU for each of ,the engine, the ABS, the
> > > airbag, the Hybrid running gear and finally the Hybrid battery.
> > >
> > > Toyota themselves use a "Techmaster scantool" with an "S2000"
> > > cartridge adaptor, with software that they wrote themselves just for
> > > this car, only available to Toyota maindealers in Japan. The software
> > > itself uses "keyword protocols", (that's code words to you and me),
> > > using ALDL speeds of communication ( Assembly Line Diagnostic Link),
> > > now known communally as OBD-1 speeds of communication, first used
> > > commonally by General motors in the mid 1980's.
> > >
> > > The problem with getting a scan tool to handle the prius Mk1 is, that
> > > the scan tool needs to handle "Toyota M-OBD" keyword protacols, It
> > > also deeds to have a "J1962 connector" with the correct pin
> > > configuration. .
> > >
> > > All OBD-1 and OBD-11 dedicatated scantools will not work on this
> > > car !!!!!!
> > > I know, I have tried several of them that are on the market. Some of
> > > them costing several thousand of pounds.
> > > There are some of the more expensive ones that do the Prius MK11(
> > > which is OBD-11 compliant using more common keyword protocols) and
> > > Prius Mk111&1V using OBD-11 "CAN" (continuose area network protocols).
> > >
> > > So "what's to do then"?
> > >
> > > The only "After market" scan tools that are known to read the OBD's
> > > of the Prius Mk1 cars are the "Carman" scan tools range made by
> > > Nextech. The Carman A200( now discontinued) , the carman scan lite and
> > > the Carman VG. The scantools also have to have the september 2007
> > > software update to get the best results as well. The carman scan lite
> > > is £1500 ($3000) retail.
> > >
> > > I own a Carman scan lite, and the scan tool Is "brilliant", as it
> > > leaves no stone unturned, you can get all the information from the
> > > car that you need on any aspect.
> > >
> > > All 20 of Prs of modules in the Hybrid battery are shown including
> > > voltages, Ohms, temp of each Pr. Also the overall max and min
> > > voltages and temperatures of the monitoring system and exact % of
> > > overall charge as well as information on every sensor on the whole
> > > car.
> > > it will give you all the trouble codes on each of the ECU's and
> > > enable you to reset them as well.
> > >
> > > The only down side to the Carman scan tools are that they do not "
> > > flash" the ECU's, that is to say that, as of yet, the software dose
> > > not turn the " balance charge request" from "OFF" to "ON" and back
> > > again, even though you can see it on the scan.
> > >
> > > One of the problems with these cars is that the cells in the Hybrid
> > > battery are an early type of "high capacity" NM-Hi, and over time
> > > they may suffer from the " battery memory affect", problem similar
> > > to NI-CAD cells, and they discharge more rapidly if left unused for
> > > any length of time as well. Toyota thought to overcome this problem
> > > by using their scantool to do the "balance charge request"
> > > manouver ,by using the cars own charging system,( a full
> > > overall/across the board 110% charge) to rejuvenate the whole Battery
> > > in one go, if this failed they would fit a free RE-CON battery
> > > instead, all though this was rare. So sadly, we "outside of Japan"
> > > owners can only strip the Hybrid Battery down ( be careful they are
> > > 315 DC volts when fully charged, from first to last terminal,
> > > according to my carman scantool info, electricians tools and gloves
> > > required). You then have to rejuvenate each module, one at a time,
> > > replacing any failed ones, and finally rebuild the battery again
> > > using as evenly as balanced pairs as you can. The Carman scan lite
> > > can help you monitor this Process but " If only" it cannot do the
> > > balance charge manouver as of yet as I have said. Some cars go on and
> > > on, without problems ( 100,000 miles +) with the battery, some have
> > > stripped the battery down and replaced a " too good" a module, to
> > > achieve a balance. So until hopefully, Carman sortout a "balance
> > > charge manouver" setting on thier scan tool, in one of their future
> > > software updates, we will still have to do this by hand. Other wise
> > > the carman scan tools covers everything else and is unique.
> > >
Saturday, March 7, 2009
Buying a Generation One Toyota Prius
Model : NHW10
Dimensions : 4305L 1595W 1465H
Year Manufactured : 1997 - 2000
Petrol Engine : 33Kw, 1500cc
Electric Motor : 30Kw, 225 Nm torque
Max RPM : 4000, ( 0 - 100 ) 14.5 Secs
Battery : 288 volts, 57 Kg
Fuel Economy : 20 Km/L or 5L/100Kms
For those who don't know anything about and have never driven a hybrid - BEWARE. You can easily end up buying a lemon. Buy from a reputed dealer and one who knows and can support this new technology.
Look for the following
1) Vehicle must have a good reconditioned battery and a Power Jockey Installed.
2) Check to ensure that the vehicle is fully maintained and serviced.
Spark Plugs : 20,000 Kms if Irridium 100,000 Kms
MAF Sensor : 80,000 Kms
Oxygen Sensors : 120,000 Kms
Service parts wear out and have to be replaced for the vehicle to operate efficiently.
If possible a scan should be done to ensure that the sensors are working correctly.
If you take care to inquire about these two aspect of the vehicle, you can be assured that the vehicle will work for many years. The Battery Clinic assures us that the battery pack can last the life of the vehicle with the occasional battery repair and cell replacement every 2 to 3 years costing about $400.
The Petrol engine is tough and very reliable. It should be able to clock up 500,000 Kms and still show little wear and tear. For one the engine does not work all the time and it red lines at 4000 RPM compared to a normal petrol engine at 8000 - 12,000 RPM. Wear and tear compared to a standard vehicle is less than half.
In New Zealand a fully reconditioned and Power Jockey equipped Generation One Prius sells for more than $5000. These vehicles are sought after because they still have a fuel economy of 20 Kms/litre.
The Electric motor will easily last the life of the vehicle. In 6 years of working with these vehicles I have not seen any motor fail.
Spare parts are available from wreckers and are well priced. Don't fall for those astronomical prices quoted for new parts by Toyota dealers. They are priced not to sell.
Great opportunity to own a hybrid vehicle
One fact that goes unnoticed is that the Toyota Hybrid not only saves money on fuel but also cost less to maintain. The weakness is the HV battery.
The HV battery In the Toyota Hybrid was expected to last between 8 to 10 years. The HV battery in the series 1 hybrid manufactured between 1998 to 2000 are failing or have failed. The problem is that a replacement battery cost more than the car is worth.
The Battery Clinic is the only company that specialize in restoring and reconditioning these HV batteries and give them a new lease of life. We charge a fix fee of $1500 for this service.
Knowledge is power and we have had a few people bring in vehicles that they have bought for $2500 - $3000. We recondition the battery and they get a very good cheap vehicle for their commute.
This car still drives like new - very smooth and still gives the good fuel economy. At $5000 and the likelihood that the battery will last for another 5 years your cost of vehicle ownership is as low as it gets.
Our company owns 3 series hybrids for 3 years now and the only maintenance cost are the tyres, and oil. Because of regen from braking, brake pads do not wear out as fast.
The HV battery In the Toyota Hybrid was expected to last between 8 to 10 years. The HV battery in the series 1 hybrid manufactured between 1998 to 2000 are failing or have failed. The problem is that a replacement battery cost more than the car is worth.
The Battery Clinic is the only company that specialize in restoring and reconditioning these HV batteries and give them a new lease of life. We charge a fix fee of $1500 for this service.
Knowledge is power and we have had a few people bring in vehicles that they have bought for $2500 - $3000. We recondition the battery and they get a very good cheap vehicle for their commute.
This car still drives like new - very smooth and still gives the good fuel economy. At $5000 and the likelihood that the battery will last for another 5 years your cost of vehicle ownership is as low as it gets.
Our company owns 3 series hybrids for 3 years now and the only maintenance cost are the tyres, and oil. Because of regen from braking, brake pads do not wear out as fast.
Thursday, March 5, 2009
Hey Bro - It could be the 12 volt battery not the HV
Before you blame the HV battery in your hybrid vehicle, check out the 12 volt battery.
1) The dashboard lights up, the gear shift box shows, but when you turn the ignition key nothing happens. Sometimes you will see the dash dim and nothing happens.
2) The car starts but idiot light such as power steering etc shows but they still work and the vehicle seems to be working eratically.
Unlike normal petrol vehicles the 12 volt battery in the Toyota Prius Hybrid is not used to start the petrol engine. The problem here is that the 12 volt battery does not have enough charge to power the computers. Check the voltage of the 12 volt battery. It should be at least 12.5 volts.
If the battery is weak change it and presto - you are away again. This advise will probably save you some money as the local mechanic who may not know too much could charge you many hours to discover this problem or to not discover this problem!
1) The dashboard lights up, the gear shift box shows, but when you turn the ignition key nothing happens. Sometimes you will see the dash dim and nothing happens.
2) The car starts but idiot light such as power steering etc shows but they still work and the vehicle seems to be working eratically.
Unlike normal petrol vehicles the 12 volt battery in the Toyota Prius Hybrid is not used to start the petrol engine. The problem here is that the 12 volt battery does not have enough charge to power the computers. Check the voltage of the 12 volt battery. It should be at least 12.5 volts.
If the battery is weak change it and presto - you are away again. This advise will probably save you some money as the local mechanic who may not know too much could charge you many hours to discover this problem or to not discover this problem!
Wednesday, March 4, 2009
Air Flow Meter, HEV Battery And How To Maintain A Hybrid
The Air Flow Meter
In a hybrid vehicle the single most important sensor is the Air Flow Meter. We cannot overstress how important this sensor is.
In the Generation 1 Prius 54 Kwh of power is provided by the internal combustion engine. If the
air flow meter is not working at 100% this full amount of power is never available. In a standard vehicle with 90 - 110 Kwh power you will not notice much difference, however in a hybrid the loss in power is compensated by the electric motor. This drains the HEV battery and usually leaves the HEV battery undercharged, leading to early battery failure.
A new HEV battery can handle this adequately but a reconditioned HEV battery with reduced capacity would struggle We have put in a perfectly good HEV battery is a vehicle with a faulty air flow meter and noticed the battery going down to yellow very quickly.
HEV Battery
The next most important component of a hybrid vehicle is the HEV battery. Assuming that all cells are working the battery always gives the full voltage and current to the electric motor. However how long it can maintain this depends on the state of the battery.
So the difference between a reconditioned HEV battery and a new HEV battery is the duration that the battery can maintain full power to the electric motor. As long as it can provide this power the battery will not out the triangle error.
However because the ICE motor charges the HEV battery the ICE motor is the more important component in this power chain. Keeping the ICE engine working at peak efficiency will keep the HEV battery healthy as well.
How to maintain the ICE motor.
Fortunately there is not really much to do to keep the ICE working at 100%.
1. The Air Flow Meter - If there is lack of power on acceleration clean or change
2. The Spark plugs - Change every 10,000 kms
3) Change motor oil when dirty.
4) Top up coolants in both reservoir
Loss in compression in the engine is a normal feature in standard vehicles. However in the hybrid vehicle even after clocking uo 150,000 Kms there is no appreciable loss in compression. This is because the engine does not run all the time and it works at much lower RPM. ( Notice that the motor oil is seldom black, and there is usually no oily deposits on the spark plugs. )
In a hybrid vehicle the single most important sensor is the Air Flow Meter. We cannot overstress how important this sensor is.
In the Generation 1 Prius 54 Kwh of power is provided by the internal combustion engine. If the
air flow meter is not working at 100% this full amount of power is never available. In a standard vehicle with 90 - 110 Kwh power you will not notice much difference, however in a hybrid the loss in power is compensated by the electric motor. This drains the HEV battery and usually leaves the HEV battery undercharged, leading to early battery failure.
A new HEV battery can handle this adequately but a reconditioned HEV battery with reduced capacity would struggle We have put in a perfectly good HEV battery is a vehicle with a faulty air flow meter and noticed the battery going down to yellow very quickly.
HEV Battery
The next most important component of a hybrid vehicle is the HEV battery. Assuming that all cells are working the battery always gives the full voltage and current to the electric motor. However how long it can maintain this depends on the state of the battery.
So the difference between a reconditioned HEV battery and a new HEV battery is the duration that the battery can maintain full power to the electric motor. As long as it can provide this power the battery will not out the triangle error.
However because the ICE motor charges the HEV battery the ICE motor is the more important component in this power chain. Keeping the ICE engine working at peak efficiency will keep the HEV battery healthy as well.
How to maintain the ICE motor.
Fortunately there is not really much to do to keep the ICE working at 100%.
1. The Air Flow Meter - If there is lack of power on acceleration clean or change
2. The Spark plugs - Change every 10,000 kms
3) Change motor oil when dirty.
4) Top up coolants in both reservoir
Loss in compression in the engine is a normal feature in standard vehicles. However in the hybrid vehicle even after clocking uo 150,000 Kms there is no appreciable loss in compression. This is because the engine does not run all the time and it works at much lower RPM. ( Notice that the motor oil is seldom black, and there is usually no oily deposits on the spark plugs. )
Battery Computer Fault - Series 1 Prius
Just last week we had a series 1 prius that has the battery charge indicator going wild. It would go halfway to full then to yellow with the tortoise appearing. By now our reconditioning process is perfected so we reconditioned it found the battery pretty dead but fixed it sucessfully even changing 6 dead cells.
When we put it back in the car we had the same problem so we drove it around thinking that we had to equalize the cells. This did not work so we had to take the battery out again. We tested the battery again with 100 amp load and found it to be very strong.
The suspicion then fell on the computer. We loaded the battery into another vehicle and lo and behold the same symptoms appeared. Wild jumping of the charge level indicator even though there was good power when the car was driven.
We changed the computer and all problems disappeared. First time that we have ever encountered a computer failure even though it did not bring up a battery fault.
What happened here was the computer software malfunction in the charge input sensors. This triggered a low battery to show the tortoise and reving up the petrol enging to charge and put in more power. It then sense that the battery if at full power immediately and went to half and 3/4 level immediately. Round and round we go as though there was very little charge in the batteries.
Anyone had this problem before?
When we put it back in the car we had the same problem so we drove it around thinking that we had to equalize the cells. This did not work so we had to take the battery out again. We tested the battery again with 100 amp load and found it to be very strong.
The suspicion then fell on the computer. We loaded the battery into another vehicle and lo and behold the same symptoms appeared. Wild jumping of the charge level indicator even though there was good power when the car was driven.
We changed the computer and all problems disappeared. First time that we have ever encountered a computer failure even though it did not bring up a battery fault.
What happened here was the computer software malfunction in the charge input sensors. This triggered a low battery to show the tortoise and reving up the petrol enging to charge and put in more power. It then sense that the battery if at full power immediately and went to half and 3/4 level immediately. Round and round we go as though there was very little charge in the batteries.
Anyone had this problem before?
Saturday, February 28, 2009
How Good Is The Toyota Hybrid Generation One 1997 - 2000
The number of series 1 having problems with the hybrid battery is increasing because it was designed to last between 8 to 10 years. The car itself is still going strong and it seem a shame to scrap the vehicle. New Zealand can no longer import this as a second hand vehicle from Japan. It is still possible to import this vehicle into Australia.
The generation 1 Prius has the black bumper strip on the front and back bumper. We have always contended that this is one very hardy car. As long as the HEV battery can be kept and maintained in good working condition nothing else major really goes wrong with it. A great car for someone who wants a workhorse and does alot of travelling.You could conceivably recoup your investment just from fuel and maintenance savings in the first year!
How good is this vehicle ? Well we were offered a 1999 white Prius hybrid this week. The owner had it at toyota for several months and the diagnosis was that the drive shaft and gearbox was broken. The owner rang us and said that the battery was still in good condition and we were offered the vehicle for $1500 transported to our workshop. We accepted the offer planning to retrive some parts from the vehicle.
The vehicle arrive next day overnight from Wellington. It managed to start but there was a cranking noise coming from the engine. We have come across this before and it does not mean that the gear box is shot! It could happen if the coolant to the gearbox is dry. This was not the case. There was oil in the crankcase so that was not it. The engine and 288V error came up. We then changed the spark plugs and air flow meter but the noise was still there. We then changed the HEV battery just in case although the triangle error was not there. It was driveable but was rough. Feels like there a gear was slipping.
We took it down for a scan but no errors were detected except that the timing was a little forward at 13% up to 16.5%. This brought us to suspect that one cylinder was missing. We checked the new spark plugs and sure enough cylinder 2 was clean! OK we got hold of a coil from another vehicle substitute for it and magic of magic the engine ran smooth. Took it for a test drive and the vehicle performed faultlessly. Has done 150,000 Kms but should do another 150,000 easily.
We did not suspect a coil fault in the first place because when the car was driven the electric drive assisted which mask the problem. We did notice that the HEV battery drained very quickly and was difficult to charge up.
This is why it is so important to keep the petrol engine running perfectly. This is not difficult to do at all. Change the air flow meter if there is lack in performance and change the spark plugs every 10,000 Kms. Any loss in power is compensated by the electric engine which cause the HEV battery to fail as it does not get a chance to charge up fully in normal driving.
There was nothing wrong with the HEV battery but it goes to show that not many mechanics including Toyota are able to correctly diagnose this vehicle. our experience is that they don't even know how to service this vehicle correctly.
So don't give up on this vehicle. I wonder how many of these cars have been scrapped unnecessarily. They are so hardy and not much mechanically goes wrong with it.
Nimh cells and reconditioning
The voltages between cells must be within 20% or the ECU will throw up an error message. If the hybrid ECU calls for more power than the battery pack can input/output, a trash battery. If the cell imbalances are more than the ECU can cope with it goes into standby mode and puts up the triangle error code.
This also means you can't mix new cells with old as it will exceed the 20% tolerance. Good used tubes getting increasingly difficult to find to build balanced packs. We have to rebuild good tubes by breaking them up and spot welding the good cells into a new tube and then reconditioning this reconstituted tube to maximum capacity.
The point of this blog is to let all Generation 1 Prius owners know that the battery clinic can now rebuilt the nimh tube from other cells.
With this process we can now make good tubes and ones of better quality than just pure cannibalised tubes. The number of good cannibalised tubes is not high because they have to pass our 100 amps stress test. Rebuilt tubes pass this test easily.
The result of this is that we can keep your Generation 1 Toyota Prius running for many more years into the future.
How good is this vehicle ? Well we were offered a 1999 white Prius hybrid this week. The owner had it at toyota for several months and the diagnosis was that the drive shaft and gearbox was broken. The owner rang us and said that the battery was still in good condition and we were offered the vehicle for $1500 transported to our workshop. We accepted the offer planning to retrive some parts from the vehicle.
The vehicle arrive next day overnight from Wellington. It managed to start but there was a cranking noise coming from the engine. We have come across this before and it does not mean that the gear box is shot! It could happen if the coolant to the gearbox is dry. This was not the case. There was oil in the crankcase so that was not it. The engine and 288V error came up. We then changed the spark plugs and air flow meter but the noise was still there. We then changed the HEV battery just in case although the triangle error was not there. It was driveable but was rough. Feels like there a gear was slipping.
We took it down for a scan but no errors were detected except that the timing was a little forward at 13% up to 16.5%. This brought us to suspect that one cylinder was missing. We checked the new spark plugs and sure enough cylinder 2 was clean! OK we got hold of a coil from another vehicle substitute for it and magic of magic the engine ran smooth. Took it for a test drive and the vehicle performed faultlessly. Has done 150,000 Kms but should do another 150,000 easily.
We did not suspect a coil fault in the first place because when the car was driven the electric drive assisted which mask the problem. We did notice that the HEV battery drained very quickly and was difficult to charge up.
This is why it is so important to keep the petrol engine running perfectly. This is not difficult to do at all. Change the air flow meter if there is lack in performance and change the spark plugs every 10,000 Kms. Any loss in power is compensated by the electric engine which cause the HEV battery to fail as it does not get a chance to charge up fully in normal driving.
There was nothing wrong with the HEV battery but it goes to show that not many mechanics including Toyota are able to correctly diagnose this vehicle. our experience is that they don't even know how to service this vehicle correctly.
So don't give up on this vehicle. I wonder how many of these cars have been scrapped unnecessarily. They are so hardy and not much mechanically goes wrong with it.
Nimh cells and reconditioning
The voltages between cells must be within 20% or the ECU will throw up an error message. If the hybrid ECU calls for more power than the battery pack can input/output, a trash battery. If the cell imbalances are more than the ECU can cope with it goes into standby mode and puts up the triangle error code.
This also means you can't mix new cells with old as it will exceed the 20% tolerance. Good used tubes getting increasingly difficult to find to build balanced packs. We have to rebuild good tubes by breaking them up and spot welding the good cells into a new tube and then reconditioning this reconstituted tube to maximum capacity.
The point of this blog is to let all Generation 1 Prius owners know that the battery clinic can now rebuilt the nimh tube from other cells.
With this process we can now make good tubes and ones of better quality than just pure cannibalised tubes. The number of good cannibalised tubes is not high because they have to pass our 100 amps stress test. Rebuilt tubes pass this test easily.
The result of this is that we can keep your Generation 1 Toyota Prius running for many more years into the future.
Friday, January 23, 2009
Interesting Toyota Estima Hybrid Car Story
We had a call yesterday from a dealer from Christchurch whom we won't name here. They had a customer with a Toyota Estima Hybrid. The inverter that charges the hybrid battery failed. They sent away to Japan for a replacement. It took 4 months to arrive and when installed they found out that the main hybrid battery was dead. They asked our price for reviving this battery to which we answered with our standard charge of $1500 but that they will have to deliver the battery to us in Auckland.
About a couple of hours later a lady rang us and asked us about our charges to fix a Toyota Hybrid battery. She said that she found us through our website www.thebatteryclinic.co.nz We of course told her $1500 not realising that the two events were connected.
She then told us that she was quoted by the dealer $2600 plus GST. Our price was including GST.
What is interesting is that our lady fried turn out to be a reporter.
We managed to get this main HEV battery fixed and another happy customer.
About a couple of hours later a lady rang us and asked us about our charges to fix a Toyota Hybrid battery. She said that she found us through our website www.thebatteryclinic.co.nz We of course told her $1500 not realising that the two events were connected.
She then told us that she was quoted by the dealer $2600 plus GST. Our price was including GST.
What is interesting is that our lady fried turn out to be a reporter.
We managed to get this main HEV battery fixed and another happy customer.
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